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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:09 pm 
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Location: NJ, USA
contractpilot wrote:
Trying to build a trip from RKSI to WSSS via autogen with Navigraph Cycle 1101. Program CTD. I tried various other flight plans - i.e. RKSI to RJAA, etc. and RJAA to WSSS without a problem.

Previously using FSbuild 2.4.0.6, updated to 2.4.0.8 and reloaded Navigraph Cycle 1101. Same problem CTD.

Paul Kuhn
KGYR



Fixed in 2409.

Thanks for the report.

Regards
Ernie.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Ernie, I'm not sure if it's a problem, but I upgraded to .9 (fresh install) and cycle 1101 and I watched FSBuild rebuild the map databases. I think it rebuilds them in the following order: VOR's, NDB's, Intersections, Airports, Airways, and finally SID's and STAR's. I have noticed this issue earlier, but decided to take a closer look this time. During the building of the SID and STAR databases, there's a line running horizontally. It does not appear from the start of the SID or STAR rebuild, which makes me think it could be a buggy SID and STAR?

SID line:
Image

STAR line:
Image

In both cases I took the shot when the line appeared, but as the rebuild is quite fast, it's hard to pinpoint it to a precise airport (if at all applicable). But both are close to the listed ones (VIDP and UTTT).

:?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:18 am 
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Location: NJ, USA
Not really a bug.

Just a line not closed when it moves between the IDL on the map.

It wasn't worth my time trying to fix it, it doesn't affect Sid/Stars entry in the Map DB.

Regards.
Ernie.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:38 am 
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Roger that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:22 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis, MN, US area
For one of the minor updates could the option Build From Route Grid be either turned on by default or made sticky between sessions?

I'm a Radar Contact beta tester and offer support on its forum. Frequently for waypoints extremely close to departure I recommend turning on that option, deleting that waypoint from the grid, and rebuild/export the file for RC to avoid missing the narrow flyby option of those close waypoints when using fast aircraft. Occasionally we also see a plan with autoroute where the on-field VOR or beacon is included but located before the departure end of the runway and is not in the procedure and departure direction and would require a 180 twice in departure. While probably not in the new Navdata based procedures it still might occur.

It is also useful in using RC's options regarding vectoring and waypoint monitoring limits for departure and approach and matching waypoints in close in portions of terminal procedures between RC and FMC waypoints. It will also be of use in RC's next generation.

Unless someone sees a negative aspect to having this option either sticky between sessions and/or on by default (becoming effective after the first build so it does not interfere with generating the initial route grid) it would simplify proofing the route in the map view and making corrections.

Thanks for considering this.
Attachment:
fsb tips and update.zip [2.98 KiB]
Downloaded 325 times

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:27 pm 
BTW, I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere in this thread, NaviGraph AIRAC Cycle 1101 Rev.2 for FSBuild2 was posted on their website on Jan. 27th. Installing it now along with the .9 update.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:49 pm 
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Location: KMDT
jordanal wrote:
BTW, I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere in this thread, NaviGraph AIRAC Cycle 1101 Rev.2 for FSBuild2 was posted on their website on Jan. 27th. Installing it now along with the .9 update.


Hi Al,

Thanks for the heads-up. I didn't realize they had a revision 2 up.

Tim

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:00 pm 
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jordanal wrote:
BTW, I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere in this thread, NaviGraph AIRAC Cycle 1101 Rev.2 for FSBuild2 was posted on their website on Jan. 27th. Installing it now along with the .9 update.

That's helpful, thanks!

Quote:
For one of the minor updates could the option Build From Route Grid be either turned on by default or made sticky between sessions?

+1

I always use it, so it'd be great if that could be set and saved/remembered.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:31 pm 
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Hi Ernie;

Same problem here FSBuild 2.4.0.8 does not seem to get the winds aloft data from ASv6 anymore. I'll try 2.4.0.9 and let you know. Thanks.

Dave

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Disregard;

I installed 2.4.0.9 and checked in the settings tab to make sure "ActiveSky" was the selected weather source, which it wasn't. Once I re-selected it everything worked fine. I suspect that was also the problem with 2.4.0.8 as well. It seems at some point that the weather source setting became reset to nothing and I failed to check it.

Dave

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:17 pm 
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I have upgraded to version 9 and tried again to get it to autogenerate a route from EGBB to EGPD. It still generates a strange route. I have latest Navdata also. Although not as bad as first update version did.

EGBB ROBIN UN601 POL UP17 OBOXA UY250 GASKO UP18 BALID EGPD

Is what it generates if I do a standard autogenerate - it doesnt attempt to put a sid into the route regardless of the settings I use. (in this case a TNT3D)

If i force a sid into the autogenerate which to do I have to type EGBB TNT3D * EGPD in first then I get the below.

EGBB TNT3D UN57 POL UP17 OBOXA UY250 GASKO UP18 BALID EGPD
I cant see why it would want to suggest this route at all.

A real world route would be

EGBB TNT3D TNT N57 POL UN601 TLA N601 GRICE P600 ADN EGPD

If i say type part of this route in again to semi help FSBUILD so say EGBB TNT3D TNT N57 POL UN601 TLA * EGPD

Then autogenerate again it gives this

TNT3D N57 POL UN601 TLA LUK EGPD

Again choosing not to use an airway that is running right across the top of TLA

Again if i put in EGBB TNT3D TNT N57 POL UN601 TLA N601 GRICE * EGPD

then I get this

EGBB TNT3D TNT N57 POL UN601 TLA N601 GRICE IDDE EGPD - still not wanting to use an airway running straight at EGPD

My concern is that it doesnt seem to want to use airways - and is choosing direct to and fixes over the use of airways. Now in this case i am more than familar with the correct route needed - but sometimes I struggle to know the exact possibilites other than searching various tracker programs so relly on FSBUILD to give me something likley - it seemed to do that better before the updates. With the examples above even when i pretty much given it the full route it still wants to do something stange.

Sorry just to add to this I was generating routes with 767 so it was giving high level cruise - if i lock the level at something below the upperairway so say 22000 i get this EGBB TNT3D ITD NTP BALID EGPD again all DCT to points and not realisitic or using airways at all!

Further edit - i have just done the rebuild map databases thing (which i didnt think made any difference only if using PM mode) However having done that if I do a autogenerate now at high level i get this -

EGBB TNT3D UN57 POL UP17 OBOXA Y250 GASKO UP18 BALID P18 ADN24 EGPD

Still wrong but it has now added the p18 ADN24 bit to it

Regards

James


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:51 pm 
Some more feedback for 2.4, Ernie.
    1) I am still seeing duplicate grid entries, especially whn adding SIDs/Stars via the PM.
    2) Is it just me or is the SIDs slider button missing - I can't drag the list up and down, just up/down arrows
    3) Could you please make the SIDs/STARs boxes taller? It's a pain listing DFW and ATL.
8)


Attachments:
File comment: Flight planning KDFW to KATL
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG [ 251.68 KiB | Viewed 6271 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:21 am 
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Location: NJ, USA
jamboc wrote:
I have upgraded to version 9 and tried again to get it to autogenerate a route from EGBB to EGPD. It still generates a strange route. I have latest Navdata also. Although not as bad as first update version did.

EGBB ROBIN UN601 POL UP17 OBOXA UY250 GASKO UP18 BALID EGPD

Is what it generates if I do a standard autogenerate - it doesnt attempt to put a sid into the route regardless of the settings I use. (in this case a TNT3D)

If i force a sid into the autogenerate which to do I have to type EGBB TNT3D * EGPD in first then I get the below.

EGBB TNT3D UN57 POL UP17 OBOXA UY250 GASKO UP18 BALID EGPD
I cant see why it would want to suggest this route at all.

A real world route would be

EGBB TNT3D TNT N57 POL UN601 TLA N601 GRICE P600 ADN EGPD


I have fixed the bug causing this issue in ver 2.4.0.10

http://www.fsbuild.com/dl/Fsbuild24010_Upd.exe

Quote:
If i say type part of this route in again to semi help FSBUILD so say EGBB TNT3D TNT N57 POL UN601 TLA * EGPD

Then autogenerate again it gives this

TNT3D N57 POL UN601 TLA LUK EGPD

Again choosing not to use an airway that is running right across the top of TLA



This particular result probably won't be any different as from what I could tell in the map display there was no
no airway from TLA went in the direction of EGPD.

Attachment:
fsbvr10_1.jpg
fsbvr10_1.jpg [ 159.07 KiB | Viewed 6262 times ]


In the screen above the the closest airway is B26, the VOR would seem to be a more direct route to EGPD.

When the autogen is building a route it first selects an anchor point for the departure and the destination
before building a route in between them (the same as if you entered EGBB TNT * LUK EGPD).
That anchor point may or may not be on an airway. It does try to use an anchor points on an airway first though
before selecting a non-airway anchor point.

Also when it gets within about 50 nm of the destination if there is no airway that goes all the way to the
destination anchor point , it stops looking for airways and uses whatever nearby Navaids it can find to complete
the route, or just got direct to the destination if it cannot find one.

The way around this behavior would be to define preferred arrival routes to EGPD in the 'PrefArrRoutes.txt' file. Then when it
generates a route to that destination the end of the preferred arrival becomes an anchor point with higher selection weight.

Quote:
Again if i put in EGBB TNT3D TNT N57 POL UN601 TLA N601 GRICE * EGPD

then I get this

EGBB TNT3D TNT N57 POL UN601 TLA N601 GRICE IDDE EGPD - still not wanting to use an airway running straight at EGPD


In this example (in 2.4.0.10) it should add an airway because P600 goes directly from GRICE to EGPD.

The it would likely not select a route to GRICE as it would then have to deviate too far from the GCR route, then have to
make a turn to make up for it. It tries to avoid big turns when generating a route, and will go DCT when necessary to avoid do so.

The, only way around that is to define a preferred arrival route for that airport.

Regards.
Ernie.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:17 am 
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Location: NJ, USA
jordanal wrote:
Some more feedback for 2.4, Ernie.
1) I am still seeing duplicate grid entries, especially whn adding SIDs/Stars via the PM.


Fixed in 2.4.0.1.0

Quote:
2) Is it just me or is the SIDs slider button missing - I can't drag the list up and down, just up/down arrows


It doesn't seem to display in certain windows themes. I use Classic theme and the scroll bar displays there, but in windows basic it does not. But weird the Star box's scroll bar displays and they are both the exact same windows control with the exact same settings.

I'll take a look at it but can't promise anything.

Quote:
3) Could you please make the SIDs/STARs boxes taller? It's a pain listing DFW and ATL.
8)


Sorry can't, if they are made bigger that pushes the lower boxes too far and users with low
resolution displays cannot see the boxes.

Have you tried using the center wheel mouse scroll ?

Regards.
Ernie.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:02 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:38 pm
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Location: Germany, 18 nm north of EDDL
Hi Ernie!

I find still one problem left in 2.4.0.10 - let's have a look at the following example, but I've seen this issue on any other pair of airports I have tried.

1.) Enter "LEAL" for departure, "EDDV" for destination, and change to plan mode PM

2.) Press the "H" button for searching high altitude airways (or leave it activated if it has been pressed before, and maybe you want to deactivate any other airway button)

3.) Select (left-click) the "MITO2A" departure in the SID/DP box

4.) Select (left-click) "MITOS I" in the Route box, then right-click it again and select "Show airways that pass over waypoint 'MITOS'"

5.) You will see that NO airways have been found!

6.) For verification, now again select (left-click) "MITO2A" in the SID/DP box, then right-click it an select "Insert 'MITO2A' SID/SP into Route"

7.) Select (left-click) "MITOS" in the third line of the grid, then right-click it again and select "Show airways that pass over Wpt MITOS"

8.) Now you can see that there are two high altitude airways passing over MITOS: UN609 and UN851

=> See first attached screenshot.

As I remember in FSB 2.3 this function worked, when selecting a waypoint from the Route box while a SID/DP was displayed the passing airways were found without problems. I would appreciate this working again because when manually building a route I want to see in which directions the airways are going from the various departure end points, before I insert a SID into the route (and in many cases at this stage of planning I do not insert the SID at all …).

It is working for the STAR:

9.) Select (left-click) the "ELNA2P" arrival route in the STAR box

10.) Select (left-click) "ELNAT" in the Route box, then right-lick it and select "Show airways that pass over waypoint 'ELNAT'"

11.) Two airways (UL190 and UN851) have been found (actually UN851 is not passing over ELNAT, but is leading close nearby)

=> See second attached screenshot.


Attachments:
File comment: Screenshot step (8.)
FSBuild24010_001.PNG
FSBuild24010_001.PNG [ 59.23 KiB | Viewed 6251 times ]
File comment: Screenshot step (11.)
FSBuild24010_002.PNG
FSBuild24010_002.PNG [ 59.98 KiB | Viewed 6251 times ]

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